This is a departure from the usual post here, but I felt it necessary to go this route. Ralph Ellison and I have been back and forth on the comments thread of my last post "Killing the Messenger", and in order to avoid the dreaded TH character limits I have decided to post the discussion as a blog. Everyone is free to read and chime in as always, and to Ralph Ellison I would just like you to know that I'm not trying to put you on blast or anything. It's just that what I wanted to say needed a larger forum than my comments section.

Ralph Ellison writes:

Flag, you have to be kidding me on this. Here we go:

“I read Etan Thomas's letter to Whitlock a while ago at SlamOnline and found it to be pretty stupid.”

How was it stupid??? Could you elaborate? How about Dave Zirin’s article?? Wasn’t he correct???
 I respond:

Etan Thomas’s article lapsed into stupidity the moment that he decided to call Jason Whitlock, JC Watts, and Clarence Thomas “Uncle Tom’s” who are willing to sell out and put down their people in order to succeed. He also managed to lump Bill Cosby into that group, so he lost all credibility with me. The rset of his “open letter” was the usual attack on a black person that he deemed to be conservative and holds no merit with me. That’s why I think his letter is stupid: it is bereft of any ideas and simply filled with the same old attacks on anyone that does not agree with the accepted liberal stances on race. As for Mr. Zirin, he is passionate but I disagree with his article. I read the Whitlock piece and did not see an attack on a race of people, but on a “hip hop culture” that is self aggrandizing and self destructive. Whitlock was right in saying that the hip hop attitude is not conducive to winning at a team sport like football, because it doesn’t stress being part of a team but stresses “getting yours.” As proof, this is what Mr. Whitlock said in his article:

“Race is not the determining factor when it comes to having a good or bad attitude. Culture is.

Hip hop is the dominant culture for black youth. In general, music, especially hip hop music, is rebellious for no good reason other than to make money. Rappers and rockers are not trying to fix problems. They create problems for attention.

That philosophy, attitude and behavior go against everything football coaches stand for. They're in a constant battle to squash rebellion, dissent and second opinions from their players.

You know why Muhammad Ali is/was an icon? Because he rebelled against something meaningful and because he excelled in an individual sport. His rebellion didn't interfere with winning. Jim Brown, Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, etc. rebelled with dignity and purpose.

What we're witnessing today are purposeless, selfish acts of buffoonery. Sensible people have grown tired of it. Football people are recognizing it doesn't contribute to a winning environment. “

I simply don’t see where that is an attack on black people, but on a “culture” that we can both presumably agree is not the healthiest of cultures to embrace.

I originally wrote:
“As for people using words like plantation, it simply doesn't get me up in arms because it is not some racial commentary at all.”
Ralph Ellison writes:
You have got to be kidding me. I have never heard someone say a Jewish person, Hispanic person, nor a “white” person has a “plantation mentality.”. Nice try Flag, but stop the BS.
I respond:

I may not have heard that whites have a plantation mentality, but I have heard of their trailer park attitudes, the victimhood status of Jews, and the “La Raza” attitudes of Latinos. Every group has words that are more closely associated with them than others. However, the “plantation” reference gets used about liberals of all stripes who stray from liberal orthodoxy, as was seen in the treatment of Joe Lieberman. I think that you see this only in reference to blacks because that’s what you want to see, and any other reference of this type will be duly ignored.

I originally wrote:
“WE kill each other like it's a goddang sport, we victimize one another like it's going out of style, and then we scream "RACISM!" We victimize one another more than anyone else, then we come up with dumb sh*t like "No snitching" so that the very people who victimize us are protected...by US! “

Ralph Ellison wrote:

True. I don’t “blame the man” for black on black crime. So what are you going to do about the problem??

My response:

I will do my best to teach my children a better way, first and foremost. Then I will try to make my voice heard among my friends, family, and within my community. That is the only way that I know to impact this situation.

I wrote:
“I am sick to death of any black man that dares take a stand that doesn't square with the ideas of the civil rights brigade being accused of "selling out" or being an "Uncle Tom".

Ralph Ellison wrote:
Same here. I like debate. Let’s here another person’s opinion. I am sure we can shoot down any cons ideas. I am also tired of being thought of as being on a “plantation” or embracing “victim hood” just because I point out that race is a major factoring America and will continue to be for a long time. Agree???

My response:

I don’t think that you really like debate as much as a good argument. To me, debate is presenting differing ideas and honestly discussing the merits of those ideas. Too often, “debate” devolves into a shouting match where each side spends it’s time telling the other side how wrong they are! Both sides are guilty of it; I am personally guilty of it, and I would wager that you are too. And until we actually learn to debate, and not simply argue, we will continue to go around and around on the same issues.

“You bemoan the fact that whites form their opinions on black culture from the snapshot of the rapper, yet you do not bemoan the fact that rappers spend all of their time accentuating the most negative stereotypes of the black man” Ralph Ellison: Actually I have on many occasions. I have joined with the NAN to boycott the Big 4 Recording Companies. BET is not shown in my household. So what were you saying again??? “If everywhere I looked I saw Bill Clinton, then maybe my views about who white people were would be skewed.” I agree. So then white people who believe in stereotypes are stupid right??? People who make judgments on 36 million people based on rappers are ignorant and stupid correct??? No sympathy for their ignorance. Lets call them out for what they are. I say: On these points, we agree. However, I cannot blame people for forming their opinions on the images that they see. Instead of complaining about that, we should be trying our best to change those images.

Ralph Ellison writes: Thursday, December, 13, 2007 10:38 AM Flag 3 “Thomas Sowell, Armstrong Williams, Alan Keyes, and Walter Williams want the same thing that most other blacks want...to see their people live up to the potential that they possess.” Do you seriously believe that???? See, I like to read. I have read Sowell, Williams, and seen Keyes for the longest time being here in the DC Area. Sowell has always been very anti-HBCU, has a strong color complex, is paid handsomely for his critique, has no involvement with the African American community he supposedly cares about, his books are overly simplistic and short on unbiased analysis, and has criticized the Civil Rights Movement since Day 1. Williams is even worse. His support of the neo-confederate movement, his strong supportive relationship with Jared Taylor and his New Century Foundation, his support of the Color of Crime Report that is completely false, disproved, and racist, his connections to groups like FAIR and the Pioneer Fund, his strong opposition to AA, and his constant Bo jangling for the Right. Shall we even discuss Alan Keyes??? That could take days. This is not hate. I don’t hate people. I hate BS, especially the kind your trying to shove down my throat. Remember that everyone who looks like you isn’t always for you. I say: You make my point for me! You have decided that all of these men are “bad guys”, so you don’t LISTEN to what they say; you hear what you THINK they are saying. I hear them saying that blacks have the same opportunities for success as anyone else, we just have to take it. But, because they are politically conservative, you see them as borderline “evil”. You care little about their ideas, but are focused on their ideology! I originally wrote: “And spare me the tired line about how conservatives extol "white culture" over "black culture". Most conservatives that I know and correspond with here at TH and in my daily life are not worrying about the so-called "white culture", but are busy extolling the virtues of AMERICAN culture.” Ralph Ellison responds: In their minds, American culture is “white/European culture”. Anything else is inferior in their eyes. Why do you think they rally so much against multiculturalism and diversity??? Be honest Flag. Not trying to get you in trouble with the cons, but please be honest ok. I respond: I have no fear of getting in trouble with anyone, especially conservatives. Because even when I disagree with them on the threads, or at this blog, or at other blogs I do not get the same type of condescending attitude that I do when I disagree with liberal dogma. As for the culture question, I have the same problems with multiculturalism as many people do. I have a problem when the multiculturalists tell people that they should not become a part of the broader American culture and should instead stand alone. That serves to do noting but divide us by pitting one individual culture against the broader American culture. American culture has absorbed and accepted elements from all sorts of cultures to form the unique American culture. Our language, our foods, our architecture, and our lifestyles reflect elements from all of those that helped to make America the “melting pot” that it was. All of those diverse cultures melded together to create a unique singular culture, which the new wave of “stir-fry” multiculturalism threatens to destroy.